Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Audio storytelling has become increasingly popular, with many taking to the microphone to share their voices, opinions, and stories through the spoken word. But it isn't just about personal expression. Podcasting connects people and can be an outlet for those underserved by the traditional media.
I'm Samantha Jolin, and you're listening to the Community podcast initiative. The goal of the CPI is to produce and promote podcasting as a way to amplify underrepresented voices through audio storytelling. This initiative is based out of Mount Rural University, which is located on Treaty seven territory. The CPI is powered by shock.
In this episode, we take a look back on the second gen series. Produced by Karina Zapata, the CPI's first podcaster in residence, the second Gen offers a glimpse into the experiences faced by the children of immigrants. The episodes explore different topics that affect first generation Canadians, like discussions on being the eldest child to sometimes polarizing experiences in the LGBTQ two s plus community. A daughter of immigrants herself, Karina brings her background and experience to each part of the series.
[00:01:29] Speaker B: In your own words, how would you describe the second gen series?
[00:01:33] Speaker C: The second Gen series is a six part podcast series based on the experiences of children of immigrants. So I really just wanted to dive into how different our experiences are, but also how, despite all of our different experiences, how we all relate to each other so much. So it's specifically focused on people whose parents immigrated to Canada and people who were born in Canada, but still have just those different experiences that we kind of go through because of that.
[00:02:04] Speaker B: Talk to me about that process of creating the second gen. What were some really memorable moments for you?
[00:02:10] Speaker C: Oh, my goodness. It certainly was a process. A lot of work goes into making a podcast, and it really started out with kind of conceptualizing the idea. It started with pitching the idea to the CPI. And this is something that's kind of been in my head for a while because I just love having these conversations. I love talking to people about the experience of being a child of immigrants because I think it's a really special one that a lot of people don't talk about a lot. And I just love having those conversations with my friends and my family. So when the opportunity came up for me to make a podcast with the CPI, I was like, you know what? It would be really cool to delve into something like this. It's something that I haven't really heard before in a podcast.
So, yeah, it started out with pitching the idea, which they were really happy about. And then I think the most difficult part for me was kind of trying to figure out what it was going to look like. So really planning how the episodes would work. I've never made a podcast before. I think I produced, like, one podcast series in journalism school, one podcast episode in journalism school, which wasn't great.
And so it was really, like starting from scratch, and then from there, it was finding the right people, because I knew I wanted two to three people per episode. So the next step was really finding people. And the difficult part about this is that even though, you know, it's something that a lot of people are experiencing and a lot of people are talking about, it's really difficult to find the right people for stories like this, for podcasts like this. So for me, I decided to reach out, kind of put a call out to get people to kind of talk about their experiences and see if they would be a good fit for that. So went through the motions of finding everybody and then setting up the question lists and making sure everyone, scheduling everyone to be available at the same time, and editing it and all of that stuff. So it was a really long process, but I learned so much, and it was a lot of fun finding all.
[00:04:16] Speaker B: The right people, I guess, to speak on this topic. What did that really look like? Obviously, you said you put out, like, a call out on social media. Did you get a lot of response from that, or did you have to probe a couple times?
[00:04:27] Speaker C: Yes. I was really surprised by how interested people were in talking about this. So what I did was I created a Google forum that asked specific questions about which episode you'd be interested in, what your experiences are. And I put a call out on social media. So I designed a graphic and kind of made it interesting for people to look at. And I got a lot of responses. Like, I got dozens of responses for the first three episodes, which I was really overwhelmed by because I wasn't expecting that. So I was expecting to probe people, but it became this thing where I was like, oh, my goodness, I'm having to say no to people. I'm having to reject people, which is really always tough.
But then after that, I did pre interviews with people. So I just set up a quick call with them, asked them some questions, and through that, I figured out who the best people would be. But I was really amazed by how many people were willing to talk about this and how many people were just saying, we don't talk about this enough. It's something that's always on my mind, but it's something that we need to have more conversations about. And there were a lot of people thanking me as well, for diving into this, which it was honestly really nice to hear.
[00:05:38] Speaker B: Well, yeah, because it's, like, exactly what you said.
[00:05:40] Speaker C: Right.
[00:05:40] Speaker B: It's not really a topic like, we hear talked about that often, and it's something that's so close to so many people's hearts and so many people's different experiences, but they've never really had that platform to have those conversations.
[00:05:52] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:05:52] Speaker B: Pretty cool.
[00:05:53] Speaker C: Yeah. And I think it's just one of those things where it's something that affects every single part of your life, but unless you have someone kind of asking you those questions, you don't realize how. So even me, I found it was a really healing process in figuring out how being a child of immigrants really impacts every single part of my life, but also just being in a room, whether it was virtual or in this studio, talking to people about the experience and, yeah, it was a really healing process.
[00:06:21] Speaker B: Did you find any of the experiences that were shared to you very relatable for you, or did you have any moments where you're like, I've been through that, too. That's crazy.
[00:06:34] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, basically every single thing. One thing that when I was recording these episodes and recording the panel interviews, I would always say, I feel like my head is going to fall off from how much I am nodding because you just agree with everything everyone is saying. You can have a whole bunch of different experiences, but there are still some things about maybe the way that you feel or the way you. You behave or do certain things because of your experience as a child of immigrants. There's nothing specifically that comes to mind. But I'm thinking, like, even in those times, my. My experiences weren't completely relatable. Like, for example, in episode one with Rome, where he was talking about his parents and how they were divorced really young and what that was like. I don't have that experience. Like, my parents are still together, but it was just still so relatable talking about the responsibility of being a child of immigrants. And I think when you really dive deep into those, it's just. It's all so relatable. It's funny sometimes it's crazy, like, how.
[00:07:41] Speaker B: Much another person's experiences can still resonate with you.
[00:07:45] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, totally.
[00:07:46] Speaker B: Especially when you're interviewing so many people from so many different places. In the last episode, when you were talking to the lady from none of it, I think it was no.
Yellow knife. Yeah, yellow knife. That's crazy to me, how we're so far apart, and yet it's the same shared experiences.
[00:08:04] Speaker C: I know, it's crazy. It was really nice to see and I think that's a good thing too, about doing. I didn't want to stick to just Calgary. I felt like it would have been nice to have everyone in a room but talking to people across the country and even then, our different geographical locations, it still was so relatable.
[00:08:23] Speaker B: What was it like working with and hearing stories from people from so many different walks of life?
[00:08:30] Speaker C: It was crazy. Honestly, even in the pre interviews I thought they would be really short ones, but we'd have like 40 minutes conversations just about the experience of being children of immigrants. And like you mentioned, it's funny because no matter where you live, where you are, how you grew up, despite those different experiences, there's still so much that you can relate to. And it honestly was a part where I learned a lot about my experiences as well through other people. I just feel like I understand myself and the way that I grew up a lot more and I understand kind of how to move forward. Understanding all of that and knowing that being a child of immigrants impacts me in this way and it makes me feel like I'm not alone. And I feel like that was really the main thing with all of our conversations, is that you have all these different people who don't know each other, who have all these different experiences, but yet you feel like you understand each other so well just because of that. Almost one thing that connects you to each other. So it was really healing. And honestly, at the end of all of these conversations, I felt like I had a little family with me, like people who I really related to and people who, yeah, it just helps me understand myself a little bit better and I'm hoping that was also how it was with them.
[00:09:54] Speaker B: Well, I think just having those conversations and that introspection helps with a bit of reflection and a deeper understanding of experiences. Maybe you just kind of washed away. You're like, doesn't really matter. But then when you come back and you think about it and it's like, wow, this actually profoundly affected me and changed the way I see the world today. What was it like working with the, like, how did you get started? I know you said that you initially pitched the idea to CPI, but how did you hear about the community podcast initiative?
[00:10:23] Speaker C: Yeah, so I graduated from the journalism degree here at Mount Royal University and I absolutely loved it. I rave about it to everyone that I know and I really just kept those connections after I graduated because honestly, all of the professors here are such a good resource. They're experts at what they do. I tell everyone that. So I really kept those connections. And I was chatting with Meg Wilcox, who's the co director of the CPI, and we were just chatting that the fact that they're starting this up and at that point, it was still an idea. Like, they were still renovating the studio and didn't really have too much for me to go off of, but it was always in the back of my mind.
And when I was in journalism school, I did not love audio. Audio and visual was like my worst nightmare ever. And I never thought that I would ever want to create a podcast. I was like, I'm strictly print, I'm strictly digital. I don't know how to do any of this. But then I kind of, over the last year, fell in love with audio storytelling, and I realized that there's just so much potential, especially when hearing those first person stories and just having the time to come together and really dive into a topic.
So I reached out to Meg and I was like, hey, how is this all going? Are you still interested in maybe producing a podcast with me? And so, yeah, I pitched the idea and they were like, yeah, we do have this opportunity. The studio is not finished yet, so we'll kind of have to work around it. But that's how I, how I got started. And I'm really glad I did reach out because, yeah, producing this podcast was, it was such a special experience and I learned so much, and I now do not shy away from audio.
[00:12:10] Speaker B: That's good, though, because especially with such a topic that's so close to you, it makes you so much more comfortable, too, because you're having conversations that really, truly matter to you, too.
[00:12:21] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:12:22] Speaker B: Did you have anyone who listened to the series reach out to you afterwards at all?
[00:12:27] Speaker C: Yeah, I had a few people reach out to me and they were just saying they're really glad that I did something like this. And it was mostly children of immigrants who listened in. I can't remember if there's anyone who reached out who wasn't a child of immigrants and learned a lot about our experience, but the people who did listen and who were children of immigrants were like, oh, my goodness, thank you so much for producing something like this and for giving me something to listen to about this, because, like I said, there really isn't much out there, or at least much that I know of and that people know of. So just raising awareness about the fact that our experiences are just so unique because of the way that we grew up with immigrant parents, I think a lot of people just felt understood. And their experiences were maybe not ignored. Like, maybe just thought of more.
[00:13:24] Speaker B: Yeah, because in a way, you're giving their experiences, their memories, a voice. Right. Because again, it's not something a lot of people have heard of. I personally also have never really heard of something like this either. So I think it's really good to share those stories. Yeah, that was a goal voice, for sure. What about your friends and family? Did they listen?
[00:13:44] Speaker C: Yeah, I had some friends listen. I think my sister listened as well, which is funny because the first episode about eldest children, it was based on my sister's experiences. She is like eleven years older than me. She basically raised me.
And, yeah, I wanted to start off the series with it because I thought it was something that a lot of eldest children go through. And I think it's something that a lot of eldest immigrant children have been talking about more lately. Like, I've been seeing a lot of posts on social media about the responsibility that they take on and just kind of what it's like being an eldest child. So my sister, she listened to it and she reached out to me as soon as she started and she was like, oh, I'm listening to it. It's really good so far.
These experiences are really strong. And she got to the point where I kind of gave her a little shout out, being like, oh, well, this reminds me of my sister. And, yeah, I think she just felt like her responsibilities were a bit more recognized, which is a huge thing because we definitely don't thank those eldest children enough for all of the work that they do.
[00:14:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I feel like because it's so expected in a lot of our cultures, it doesn't really necessarily get recognition, certainly doesn't get paid.
This is what's expected. You're the eldest child, you have the most responsibility. And then they kind of grow up and it's like, why do they get away with everything and have to work so hard?
[00:15:10] Speaker C: Oh, my God, it's so true. And I think that's the thing, right? This whole series, they're all things that are expected.
Of course the eldest children are going to do the most work when their parents don't speak the language or don't understand the systems. Of course children of immigrants are going to struggle with their mental health if they, in their cultures, it's not recognized to really focus on that. There are just so many parts of this that's like, yeah, it's expected in our cultures, but why? And it was kind of just exploring that and exploring just the why behind it and how it affects us. And, yeah, I felt like that was kind of the toughest thing when reaching out to people, because it's one of those things where it's like, of course it's a given when you're part of those cultures, when that is your experience. But I really just wanted to explore kind of more behind that.
[00:15:58] Speaker B: I think it's cool, too, just, like, touching on the whole language part.
A lot of people, I guess, don't really realize what that looks like when you're seven years old, translating for your parents.
That's a lot of responsibility for a seven year old.
[00:16:15] Speaker C: Right.
[00:16:15] Speaker B: Like, having to understand even simple things like transactions.
[00:16:19] Speaker C: Right.
[00:16:19] Speaker B: You're still new to the country, too, but because you're in the schooling system here and you have been forced to learn it a little bit faster, even helping your parents make sure that they're getting the right change kind of thing. A lot of people don't really realize how much responsibility such an actually young child has just because they are the oldest and they know the most.
[00:16:40] Speaker C: Absolutely. It is so true. And even when you're so young and your parents don't speak the language and they're trying to navigate the immigration system, being canadian born, English is my first language. Trying to understand the immigration system myself now is impossible. So I can't imagine what it's like not speaking the language and being seven years old and trying to help your parents navigate something like this, it makes you grow up really fast. And I think a lot of people don't realize that.
[00:17:08] Speaker B: No, because that's so stressful. Even the language is the words they use. It almost seems like it's intentionally confusing. So it's even worse when you don't actually have a full grasp on the language and you're trying to make that move and you don't really have any help.
[00:17:24] Speaker C: Exactly. And you're a child.
I know.
[00:17:27] Speaker B: A literal baby.
Looking back on the series, especially based on everything we just talked about, was there anything you felt like it would have been cool to delve a little deeper into or take a little bit farther?
[00:17:41] Speaker C: That's a good question. I think, honestly, all of it.
I think with these conversations, I felt like I could have spoken to these people forever. It was one of those things where you don't want to stop talking, you want to just keep having these conversations forever. And all of these things were stuff like, were topics that were on my mind for so long.
Let me think about that. I'm trying to think of every episode and what I could have delved into deeper. I mean, I'm thinking of maybe of expectations of success. Episode five. I think I probably could have because it was such a broad topic. I think there are so many different ways that kind of being a child of immigrants shapes those expectations of success around you. And I think it was tough because with the time constraints, obviously you can't talk to people forever. And I wish I could, but I think there was so much more, especially when it comes to financials. This is something that's on my mind a lot. And just thinking about money as a child of immigrants, it's really complex, and you have a lot to navigate emotionally when it comes to money, which I feel like wasn't brought out as much in that episode. But just the idea of your parents move here and they come here for the most part to create a better life for you, for their children.
And a lot of that comes with a lot of sacrifice. And when those children get older and they start being successful and they start making good money, what happens when they start being more successful than their parents? What happens when they start making more money?
We touched a lot on that sense of guilt, but I think there's a lot more to that because I think there's a lot that comes with what happens when you actually reach that success. What are the motions that you go through? And it was interesting because in that episode, none of those people felt like they have reached that success. And I think it's one of those things where you never really feel like you're going to be successful enough. You're never going to feel like you're doing enough when you're in those situations. But I think there's a lot of guilt that comes with making more money than your parents, being more successful than your parents, even though that's a point, right. That's why they sacrificed so much. But I think there was a lot to kind of dive into there.
[00:20:16] Speaker B: It's kind of just like, at what point can you really, truly pay back the life that they've given you?
What does that look like? There's no real start or finish to that, but you constantly have that feeling of just like, I have this because of what my parents sacrificed and what they went through to give me this. How can I pay them back? How can I make sure that they are in the most pristine condition, that they don't have to work too hard? Because traditionally, coming here as an immigrant, you are working, like, three or four times harder than the average person just to make a living.
[00:20:49] Speaker C: Right. It's so true. And, I mean, that's something that's always on the back of my mind, like, how will I pay my parents back? And I always just think about all their sacrifices. I personally can't imagine moving somewhere, like giving up my home, giving up being around my family and my friends for a better life for my children. And of course, you're not really expecting anything back, but it's one of those things where it's like, of course they work so hard, of course you want to give back to them, and it feels like it's impossible to do that because of how much they sacrifice for you.
[00:21:22] Speaker B: Yeah. And just to clarify, too, by no means do the parents ever really, truly expect to be paid back. But it's kind of just like they left their country, they left everything that could have been comfortable, put themselves in this position where it's very uncomfortable just to give you the best that they could. Right. So it's almost like that feeling of, like, you might not expect me to give you anything in return, but you deserve much better, basically.
[00:21:47] Speaker C: And I'm sure there are parents who are expecting things in return as well. And that's a whole different story.
[00:21:52] Speaker B: Care of me when I'm older.
[00:21:53] Speaker C: Exactly. I think that's the number one thing. I remember my mom when I was younger. I was like seven years old, and she was like, I have a serious question for you. What are you going to do if you get married to someone who doesn't like me and they don't want me to live with you when I'm older? Are you going to put me in a nursing home? And I was like, oh, my God, mom, that's not something that you should be asking a seven year old. I don't know. I don't know the answers to that. So I think there is obviously that.
[00:22:17] Speaker B: Expectation, like, a little bit, you take.
[00:22:20] Speaker C: Care of me when I'm older. You have to.
[00:22:22] Speaker B: But I feel like that's kind of somewhat, to an extent, kind of a fair expectation at the same point, because I wouldn't want to be taken care of by strangers. Oh, yeah. When you get to that point where you're functioning. But it's like, I would rather my family than a random person I don't really have a connection with. But it's also just like respecting the level of burden you're going to put on yourself, too. I think avenging, and I feel like.
[00:22:50] Speaker C: That could be another episode of this podcast as well, is just like aging as an immigrant and kind of like those expectations on children of immigrants. Because I know, at least for me, in my culture, putting someone in a nursing home is not a normal thing to do. You take care of them. You are their caregiver. It's expected of you. So how do you navigate that in this world, in this western world, where it's normal to kind of just put someone in a home and visit them every so often? Oh, man, I love having those conversations, too.
[00:23:22] Speaker B: Very westernized, like, okay, bye, mom.
[00:23:25] Speaker C: Oh, my God. I could never.
[00:23:28] Speaker B: Well, you think about it now, and it's like, oh, you really couldn't, right? But that's a reality.
[00:23:34] Speaker C: It's true.
[00:23:35] Speaker B: Again, as, like, an immigrant coming here, like, you're not going to do this to me, right?
It's like, well, I don't know. You better get along.
[00:23:44] Speaker C: Don't listen to this, mom.
[00:23:46] Speaker B: I would never. Mom, what was it like being a podcaster in residence? Do you have any advice for someone who might be interested?
[00:23:56] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it was a lot of fun. It was a lot of work, but it was a lot of fun. And I can't think of any other opportunity that would come up like this.
Even in the news world. I was kind of thinking of, what are some other ways that I could produce a series like this where you're given the support, you're given the funding, you're given the time just to really.
I was working on this podcast for months, and I think that's a luxury. And I think it's something that you don't come by often. So anyone who's interested, I'm not sure if you can apply, but apply. I'm not sure what that process is like.
I enjoy this experience so much, and I'm so grateful for Meg and Brad for replying to all of my panicked emails at the latest times of the night or super early in the morning and forcing them to come into the studio because I needed their help. You don't get that support anywhere else. And I was really grateful that they gave me this opportunity and that I was able to create something that I'm really proud of. I think it's hard with something like this because you really want to take that time, and time is just such a luxury when it comes to journalism. So anyone who's interested.
Get on it. Get on it.
[00:25:13] Speaker B: Potentially, perhaps you'll make another podcast series for a year. Of course.
As a listener, though, what kind of stories would you really hope to hear from here on?
[00:25:23] Speaker C: That's a good question. I think there just needs to be more about just marginalized people's experiences. I think it's missed a lot in daily news, and I think there are so many podcasts out there. But when you hear something that really relates to your experience, and when you hear something that maybe comes out of a city that you live in, I think that can be really special. And I really just want to hear more about what it's like to be a person who isn't maybe represented in the news that much isn't represented in the media. I want to hear more of those first person stories of what it's like to navigate a world that maybe wasn't created for you, that wasn't meant for you. I just really want underrepresented voices to be heard more.
I want to hear people taking the time to really delve into those experiences.
So that's kind of a vague answer, but that's what I would love to hear. And those are kind of the stories that I would tune into the most.
[00:26:27] Speaker B: When I listened to the last episode again, I had so many moments where I teared up a little bit, and it's like these aren't necessarily my experiences, but hearing so many different perspectives and getting those experiences, I guess, from a secondary source, it's really impactful. And I think in a world where so much is going on all the time, taking that time to even hear experiences from other people, I think that's so massively impactful and just reflecting, I think it's incredibly powerful. And I think overall, telling stories like these and sharing these experiences will help build more tolerance and understanding across other cultures, too.
[00:27:08] Speaker C: Absolutely. Yeah. And that's the goal. Right? And I think that's the power of audio storytelling is just like, it's so different. Reading an article about these experiences, those are all out there. You can read and read and read as much as you want, but taking the time to sit down for 30 minutes and hear someone tell their firsthand experience about what it's like and how hard it can be being a child of immigrants or whatever category it's in, I think that's really special, and I think we need to hear a lot more of that. Just so people maybe have more empathy, but even on the other side, just so people feel more understood. Because I think that's a big thing that comes with being a part of a marginalized group, is that you feel like your experiences aren't understood. And there's that surface level where, of course, people kind of get where you're coming from, but the different nuances, maybe people don't understand. And unless you're having conversations like this, where you take the time to really dive into them. I think it's hard to maybe put that across.
[00:28:15] Speaker A: This was the community podcast initiatives episode the making of the second gen series with podcaster in resident Karina Zapata. A special thanks to Karina for sharing her time and insights with us. I'm Samantha Jolin and I produce this episode. Thanks for listening.
The Community podcast initiative at Mount Oral University focuses on audio storytelling as a way to better include underrepresented voices. The CPI is powered by Shaw. You can learn more and hear our shows at the podcast studio CA, or find us on social media at Communitypod yYC.
